Re: Digest of messages 36.53-36.58 (fwd)

----Original Message-----
From: Jörg Rhiemeier <joerg.rhiemeier@...>
To: romilly@egl.net <romilly@...>


>Let me add a few comments.  I don't know more about your language
>than what I could glean from the interlinear, but a few things
>struck me enough to comment on them.
>
>> karun-il-e shehama-l-i ri waka nele-sh, anit( )* sit(=sila)
>> lord-PL-DAT spirit-PL-GEN LOC under sky-PL, ring three
>              ^^^^^^
>
>I don't think this is a smart move.
>The same old problem strikes again here, that darn polysemy of that
>little English word "elf".
>While "shehama" is quite a workable translation of "fairy", it does not
>work here.  The Elves of Middle-earth are no "fairies", but very
>corporeal beings with souls, much closer to us humans than to that other
kind
>of beings traditionally called "elves".
    The Kash, as you may know, are not of our Planet/culture.  Shehama are
not "fairies" in any sense; they are the spirits that (anciently) were
thought to dwell in
every object; nowadays, more commonly just in nature:  trees, rocks,
mountains, rivers, seas, storms, the soil, etc.  They have not "human", but
have soul, and power  to protect or harm; they are invoked, and
traditionalists, at least, still believe they must be appeased.  So no, they
aren't elves in Tolkien's sense.

>I assume that Kash has no word for "Elf",
        Correct.

>but I think it is better to
>circumscribe or just plainly borrow than translate by choosing the
>wrong prong of a polysemous word.
    Well, I disagree.  One comes as close as one can, within the limits of
what one is translating.  In this case a somewhat incantatory poem, that
doesn't want to be burdened with footnotes.  A full-scale translation of
LOTR to Kash (or even many natlangs) would of course need multiple notes to
make Tolkien's world understandable to another culture.

>You cannot properly translate the word "Elf" here assuming it means
>"fairy", because it is well known that it does not.
>Unless, of course, the word "shehama" shows a similar polysemy, but
>your interlinear does not indicate this.
>The choice of "Elf" by Tolkien has been criticized, and he realized
>the problem by himself, though it was justified by the etymology of
>the word: in pre-Christian times, it referred to beings much more like
>the Elves of Middle-earth.  Does "shehama" have a similar (fictional)
>etymology?
>
>> (*poetic license:  should be _aniti_ , genitive)
>Why genitive?  It is "Three Rings to the Elvenkings", not "Elvenkings
>of the Three Rings"; or is this a peculiarity of the Kash grammar
>that it marks the possessed item instead of the possessor?
    It is simply that there are two ways of expressing "number + noun":  (1)
far more common "number(full form)  + noun (unmarked for plural)":  sila
anit 'three rings'  (2) older, formal, somewhat bookish/literary
"noun-GEN(no plural) + number(full or short form) aniti sit ~ aniti sila.

>> karun-il-e ka/krambo-l-i ri puna-ni cangar, sot (=sor)
>> lord-PL-DAT dwarf-PL-GEN LOC house-their stone, seven
>>
>> kash-il-e kayi re nile yushom horem, san (=sana)
>> man-PL-DAT alive REL 3pl/DAT destiny die, nine
>             ^^^^^
>
>Are Elves and Dwarves not alive?  This adjective at this point confuses
>me.
        Kash unlike English is poor in synonyms.  Direct translation of
"Mortal" (i.e subject to dying) would have involved repetition of _horem_,
or a derivative thereof, which would be aesthetically displeasing.
>Or does the adjective have some peculiar connotations in Kesh ...
    Only in the sense that they (and I) would hold that all living things
are also mortal.

>...which do not apply, for which reason ever, to Elves and Dwarves?>
        I don't know.  Are Tolkien's elves and dwarves not mortal too?
_Shehama_ are only mortal insofar as the objects they inhabit can be
destroyed, used up, decay to dust etc.   As for dwarves-- I'd suspect that
Tolkien's are probably not the same sort of little people who played the
munchkins in Wizard of Oz.  That sort of dwarfism is very rare amongst the
Kash, as well as the Gwr (the other intelligent species on their planet--
they dislike/distrust each other).  Krambo, in fact, derives from the name
of a Gwr dwarf (Ka-lang po) who was jester in one of the ancient Kash
courts.

>> kra-kakarun ca-landru-e ri kungula oramba, mes (=mesa)
>> PEJ-king SUPERL-high-DAT LOC throne dark, one
>
>Why not "oramba-e" (or whatever is the dative of "dark") in place of
>your "ca-landru-e"?  Why did the Dark Lord become "The Highest King"
>in your poem?
    It modifies _kungula_ throne (unmarked accusative).  "Dark Lord...dark
throne"

works in Engl., "krakarun orambaye ri kungula oramba" doesn't work in Kash;
the first attempt was "krakarune añorambayi ri kungulani-- mes" 'to the
(evil) lord of darkness on his throne, one--'  awkward and not particularly
rhythmical.
IIRC the Dark Lord was, or at least wanted to be, supreme.

Traduttore, traditore......