Re: The Lord's Prayer, a translation exercise
| From: | Ray Brown <ray.brown@...> |
|---|
| Date: | Monday, July 15, 2002, 17:56 |
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On Sunday, July 14, 2002, at 08:31 , Thomas R. Wier wrote:
> Quoting Ray Brown:
>
>> If translating the Paternoster is of interest, shouldn't the
>> proper concern of this list be translating it into one's conlang?
>
> Indeed!
>
> Perhaps it's best to look first at the original Greek text
> from Matthew 6:9-13 again (omitting accent marks):
Yes indeed - translating a translation tends to increase inaccuracies -
rather like the game "Chinese whispers".
{snip}
> Making a good translation into Phaleran is complicated in several
> ways.
Yep - this can certainly be a problem if a conlang is attached to a
con-culture.
> Although there is a great variety of religious belief in
> Phalera, mostly they are impersonal or are similar to ancestor
> worship. Also, the fairly rigid distinction that Christianity
> makes between the earthly and spiritual planes of existence does
> not really have an analogue in Phaleran culture,
But Christian missionaries have had similar problems to these - and in
any case the 'rigid' distinction is surely a modernism. I don't think the
medievals would've found the distinction .
{snip}
> "ho en tois ouranois" would make no sense if it were taken literally,
> (unless you take the prayer to be an assertion that the Deity resides
> in a specific tract of atmosphere, _woloi_);
Well, I think most Christians would agree about a literal "in the skies/
heavens". We have long since abandoned the notion of the seven
heavens with their 'planetary' orbits (we no longer, indeed, reckon the
sun & moon as planets).
{snip}
> [(6) I am perhaps taking some liberty here by taking _epiousion_ as
> "what is needed".
You are :)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Sunday, July 14, 2002, at 09:08 , Christian Thalmann wrote:
> ************************************************************************
> --- In conlang@y..., "Thomas R. Wier" <trwier@U...> wrote:
>> > Quoting Ray Brown:
>> >
>> > > If translating the Paternoster is of interest, shouldn't the
>> > > proper concern of this list be translating it into one's conlang?
>> >
>> > Indeed!
>
> Well then...
>
> Note: This text is solely a translation exercise and need not
> (indeed, does not) represent my personal beliefs.
>
> I've also taken the liberty of slightly adapting the content to the
> available Obrenje dictionary. For example, you won't find a word for
> "sin" in Obrenje. ;-)
So, what's the problem? You won't find a word for "sin" in the
Matthew version (and liturgical version) of the Paternoster
either!
The Matthew version has:
kaì áphes he:mîn tà opheilé:mata he:mô:n,
and release for-us the debts of-us
ho:s kaì he:meîs aphé:kamen toîs opheilétais he:mô:n
as also we have-released [them] for-the debtors of-us
i.e. and release us from our debts, just we have also released
our debtors.
_áphes_ and _aphé:kamen_ are the 2nd sing. aorist imperative & the
1st plural present perfect respective of the verb _aphíe:mi_ which
literally means 'I send away'.
It came also to mean: 'I let go', 'I set free', 'I release',
'I acquit', 'I get rid of', 'I remit' etc etc.
After the Paternoster (which BTW has no final 'amen' in the Greek,
that being a Vulgate addition), Jesus is quoted as explaining:
"for if you release people from their transgressions (paraptó:mata),
your heavenly father will release you also."
_parápto:ma_ means 'a false step', 'blunder', 'trespass',
'transgression' (stepping beyond).
Because the explanatory addition is not included when the prayer
is used liturgically, 'trangressions' often replace the word 'debts'.
Indeed, you seem to have practically the same:
{snip}
> A ze jennale u xim gorod bamwe jennaze i
> /aZj@n"na:l M ziNgO"rOd "bamw@ j@n"na:Zi
> and PER:1:OBJ forgive:2 PRE POS:1 fault how:REL forgive:1 OBJ
>
> xim lilaj.
> /zim li"laj/
> POS:1 debitor
>
> "And forgive us our faults in the same way as we forgive our
> debitors."
So, what's the problem?
BTW the Greek words traditionally translated as "to sin" and "sin" are:
hamartánein = to miss the mark [in spear throwing], to fail in one's
purpose, to go wrong
hamartía = failure, error
Ray.
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