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Re: Bopomofo and pinyin

From:Raymond Brown <ray.brown@...>
Date:Tuesday, January 25, 2000, 17:53
At 10:44 pm +0000 23/1/00, And Rosta wrote:
>Ray: >> I also think it a weakness that PY imports the double use of {h} which, >> thanks to the Norman scribes, we have inherited in English, namely: as a >> consonant (in Mandarin [x]), and as a consonant modifier (in Mandarin to >> mark the voicless retroflex {ch}, {zh} and {sh} - the voiced {r} not >> 'needing' the modifier). It could've been done differently (all my >> various schemes IIRC did so). >> >> >>I'm still waiting for John to develop the definitve >> >>system :) >> >> I've no doubt John could do this very well. But I guess the final word has >> to be with the Chinese themselves. > >I don't really care what the Chinese do, but I'd love to hear your schemes, >and John's, if he has any, and anyone else's.
My schemes are lost in the depths of time and are now half-remembered fragments in my mind :)
>Note that I don't know what >the relevant issues are. (Like, I don't know what the phoneme inventory & >phonotactics are.)
The phoneme inventory is controversial. Do the palatals ( {q}, {j}, {x}; SAMPA [ts\_h], [ts\], [s\] ) form a separate set of phonemes? They occur only before [i] and [y], and diphthongs & triphthongs beginning with the corresponding semivowels. On the other hand, the dental series ({c}, {z}, {s}; [ts_h], [ts], [s]), the retroflex series ({ch}, {zh}, {sh}; [ts`_h], [ts`], [s`]) and the velar series ({k}, {g}, {h}; [k_h], [k], [x]) occur before all vowels, diphthongs & triphthongs _except_ those beginning with [i], [y], [j] or [H]. If the palatals are allophones of one of the three series in the preceeding paragraph, of which of the three series are they allophones? Most Romanizations I have seen represent the semi-vowels [j] and [w] as {y} and {w}, yet they do not have separate phonemic status as far as I see it. And there are controversies regarding the phonemic status of vowel sounds and no Romanization scheme I've seen seems to attempt a strictly phonemic rendering here.
>> >What I really can't stomach is the PY use of {q}. >> >> I know. And using {j} invariably makes most of our newscasters >> mispronounce Beijing as [bej'ZiN]. There seems to be an assumption in the >> liguistically naive, but educated, Brits that "foreign {j} = [Z]". Might >> it have something to do with that fact that French is only foreign language >> taught in most UK schools? > >Yes. BTW, the rule is more like "/dZ/ becomes /Z/ in foreign words", because >even Azerbaidzhan (I have to admit I'm not sure how to spell this, but >I'm sure there's a <d> in it at least sometimes) is affected.
Yes, 'tis so. I guess these revered newscasters believe only anglophones can pronounce [dZ], others not blest with English as their L1 can manage only [Z]. <sigh> Ray. ========================================= A mind which thinks at its own expense will always interfere with language. [J.G. Hamann 1760] =========================================