Re: Bopomofo and pinyin

At 10:44 pm +0000 23/1/00, And Rosta wrote:
>Ray:
>> I also think it a weakness that PY imports the double use of {h} which,
>> thanks to the Norman scribes, we have inherited in English, namely: as a
>> consonant (in Mandarin [x]), and as a consonant modifier (in Mandarin to
>> mark the voicless retroflex {ch}, {zh} and {sh} - the voiced {r} not
>> 'needing' the modifier).   It could've been done differently (all my
>> various schemes IIRC did so).
>>
>> >>I'm still waiting for John to develop the definitve
>> >>system :)
>>
>> I've no doubt John could do this very well.  But I guess the final word has
>> to be with the Chinese themselves.
>
>I don't really care what the Chinese do, but I'd love to hear your schemes,
>and John's, if he has any, and anyone else's.
My schemes are lost in the depths of time and are now half-remembered
fragments in my mind  :)

>Note that I don't know what
>the relevant issues are. (Like, I don't know what the phoneme inventory &
>phonotactics are.)
The phoneme inventory is controversial.

Do the palatals ( {q}, {j}, {x}; SAMPA [ts\_h], [ts\], [s\] ) form a
separate set of phonemes?  They occur only before [i] and [y], and
diphthongs & triphthongs beginning with the corresponding semivowels.

On the other hand, the dental series ({c}, {z}, {s}; [ts_h], [ts], [s]),
the retroflex series ({ch}, {zh}, {sh}; [ts`_h], [ts`], [s`]) and the velar
series ({k}, {g}, {h}; [k_h], [k], [x]) occur before all vowels, diphthongs
& triphthongs _except_ those beginning with [i], [y], [j] or [H].

If the palatals are allophones of one of the three series in the preceeding
paragraph, of which of the three series are they allophones?

Most Romanizations I have seen represent the semi-vowels [j] and [w] as {y}
and {w}, yet they do not have separate phonemic status as far as I see it.

And there are controversies regarding the phonemic status of vowel sounds
and no Romanization scheme I've seen seems to attempt a strictly phonemic
rendering here.

>> >What I really can't stomach is the PY use of {q}.
>>
>> I know.  And using {j} invariably makes most of our newscasters
>> mispronounce Beijing as [bej'ZiN].   There seems to be an assumption in the
>> liguistically naive, but educated, Brits that "foreign {j} = [Z]".  Might
>> it have something to do with that fact that French is only foreign language
>> taught in most UK schools?
>
>Yes. BTW, the rule is more like "/dZ/ becomes /Z/ in foreign words", because
>even Azerbaidzhan (I have to admit I'm not sure how to spell this, but
>I'm sure there's a <d> in it at least sometimes) is affected.
Yes, 'tis so.  I guess these revered newscasters believe only anglophones
can pronounce [dZ], others not blest with English as their L1 can manage
only [Z].   <sigh>

Ray.



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A mind which thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language.
                   [J.G. Hamann 1760]
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