Re: Case's Name

John Vertical wrote:

>>Max wrote:
>>
>> > For Vbazi, to find a way to express meanings like "orange juice",  >
>>"milk coffee", or "apple pie", I've invented a preposition that is a  >
>>"preposition of composition" that works like "juice PREP orange" and  >
>>"coffee PREP milk".
>>
>>You realize you have three different types of relations there:
>>
>>(1) orange juice is juice comprised entirely of oranges
>>(2) milk coffee is coffee with milk added
>>(3) apple pie is something that prominently features (but does not
>>entirely consist of) apples
>>
>>I think it would be strange to have one preposition to do all three
>>of these.  If you flip it and make "juice orange" and "pie apple", then
>>you'd get something very much like French à, wouldn't you?
>
>Seconded.
>
>It seems to me that (2) is most likely to receive a different structure
>than the others. "Coffee" is a well-defined dish all by itself, but "juice"
>and "pie" are not. You can have "plain coffee", but not "plain juice" or
>"plain pie"; no, it's always orange, papaya, etc juice. Likewise, altho you
>*could* theoretically bake an empty pie crust and call it "plain pie", it's
>practically always "something pie" - be it apple, kidney, or
>crowberry-bogblueberry.
>
Yeah, the major difference of the "milk coffee" is that milk isn't an
essential ingredient of the coffee while the others are, or at least it is
more essential in apple pie as you explained

>
>>Anyway, for (1), I'd call that case the comprisative (I actually use
>>that case in Zhyler), where X is comprised entirely of Y (well, I
>>guess you'd have to switch the arguments).
>>
>>For (2), you could just use an instrumental, or something.
>>
>>For (3), you could use a comprisative, or an instrumental.
>
>"Comprisative" sounds like quite a limited case; IMO that meaning would be
>better suited to be conveyed by the preposition. You could maybe even use
>that same preposition for these and all similar constructions, if its
>definition were wide enough (not just "comprizing of" but also "contains
>some amount of")
>
>Case-wise, I would just use genetive for 1 and 3. But for 2... an
>instrumental sounds odd (unless I've understood the usage of the case
>completely wrong.) If you want something more obscure than just a
>run-off-the-mill genetive here, try a comitative case ("in the precence of,
>accompanied with").
>...


>Rechecking the Vbazi grammar, I see that you already have a comitative, tho
>as a verbalizer; but that would be one solution anyway. "Coffee
>is-together-with-milk" sounds neat enough to me.
>
The first default with this is the lenght:

coffee: gevbe
milk: kalt
za: non-human 3rd person word for "that" in "the person that does something"
or "those that are something"

milk that is with coffee: gevbe za kaltyib
I drink milk that is with coffee: gevbejl za kaltyib i mawnjai

And, "gevbejl za kaltyib i mawnjai" seems long to say "I drink milk
coffee"...

And, don't you think that comitative would be confusing if I speak of a
coffee cup next to a milk bottle?... mmm I think about this, and realise
that in that case the verb would take a dual ending and not with "milk
coffee"...

The best could be to use another preposition to distinct if the ingredient
is naturally in that meal or if it is added only for purpose of changing the
taste like salt, pepper, mustard, and all that kind of stuff.

I used the preposition "ni" and I could add "be" when the ingredient is
added to addapt the taste to one's preference. So:

Milk coffee: gevbe be kalt
I drink milk coffee: gevbejl be kalt i mawnjai

Orange juice: zizai ni pheke
I drink orange juice: zizaijl ni kalt i mawnjai


I'll have to think again about this, the answer will come naturally to my
mind about which of these possibilities I shoul take...

Or may I let two possibilities? The comitative, that is longer to formulate,
could be used in formal context while the preposition "be" could be used in
informal context. Or "be" in formal context for ingredient used to change
the taste, but "ni" for all ingredients when informal...

Thanks, I'll think about this

- Max

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