Re: Translation thingy (was Re: Antipassive)

I've lost the beginning of this thread, but here it is in Kash, which has no
passive voice. (_patin_ 'punish' is temporary)

> > > "The girl who was hit by her brother was punished". (Is this right?
Why would the victim be punished???? but anyway...)

"Normal" active:  ipatin luminjin re yen yakepak mambreni
           i-katin       luminji-n   re   yen    ya-kepak   mambre-ni
       3pl-punish   girl-acc     REL  3s/f/acc(her)  3s(subj)-hit
brother(nom)-3Poss(her)
"They punished the girl who her brother hit her"

(actually the rel.clause here (with subj. last) is "passivized"; it could
have been "....re mambreni yen yakepak" which would translate as (active)
"...whose brother hit her").   Without context, verbs with 3pl. subject
prefix are interpreted as "unknown/irrelevant subject" = "passive"

"Passivization" (or the translation equivalent) is done by fronting the
object.  In this case, however, because the object NP contains a "lengthy"
rel.clause and is "too heavy" to front in toto, we have to transform to
topic/comment:

luminji re yen yakepak mambreni, yen ipatin
"As for the girl(nom.) who her brother hit her, they punished her"
(different intonation, and the topic is in nom. case regardless of its role
in the sentence)

> > > "The girl who hit her brother was punished"
Normal active:  ipatin luminjin re yakepak mambreñi
 i-katin  luminji-n    re ya-kepak   mambre-n-ni
3pl-punish girl-acc REL 3s(subj)-hit  brother-acc-3poss(her)

"Passive", again a topic/comment due to "too heavy" Obj.NP
luminji re yakepak mambreñi, yen ipatin "(as for) the girl(nom.) who hit her
brother, they punished her ~she was punished"

A simpler sentence:
Normal active:  çenji yarungombra lopan "Shenji killed/slaughtered a lopa
(food animal)"

Passivized (object fronted)  lopan yarumgombra çenji

Topicalized :  lopa, çenji yan yarungombra ~ lopa, yan yarungombra çenji--
slight difference (subject/agent emphasis), but not important (yan =
3/m/acc, masc. by default)

Unknown/irrelevant agent, Normal:  irumgombra lopan 'they killed a lopa = a
lopa was killed'

"Passivized":  lopan irungombra -- definitely interpreted as "a lopa was
killed"


Topicalized _(?*)lopa, yan irungombra" seems a little odd; but OK if lopa
was marked as definite/previously mentioned:  lopa ya (or, lopani), yan
irungombra "(As for) that (or the/his) lopa, they killed it.

Then there's the "accidental" verb form, usually agentless--
luminjiye cakepak
luminji-e   ca-kepak
girl-dat   accid.-hit
"The girl got hit"

to express the agent:
luminjiye cakepak  mambreyini
(as above.........) mambre-i-ni
girl-dat  accid-hit   brother-gen-poss
"The girl got hit by her brother"

Here, the hitting was _probably_ accidental; in the first batch of
sentences, with active ya-kepak, it was definitely deliberate.

Cf. also:   lopaye cakombra "A lopa got killed"-- hit by a truck, maybe
       lopa-e   ca - kombra
   lopa-dat  accid.-death