Re: Untranslated notes (was: Poll by Email No. 7)

En réponse à Boudewijn Rempt <boud@...>:

>
> Then surely you won't have any problems understanding an article
> written
> in, say, German?  Since it's language-independent anyway.
>
The equations yes. But sometimes equations are not enough, especially to
understand how to jump from one to th other. And I've been told by German
scientists that they sometimes have themselves difficulties to understand
scientific articles in German, their native tongue! So what about someone whose
native tongue is not German!

>
> Stuff and nonsense. The physics will stay -- and stay more or less the
> same.
> Your successors can study exactly the same phenomena.
Except that we *need* an answer soon. You know, my research is not disconnected
from the real world. It will have consequences, mainly on issues like public
safety. So you can understand that people expect some advance during the four
years of my Ph.D. (that's also a thing: I must finish my Ph.D. with something
presentable), and that waiting ten years more may be too late.

 The same doesn't
> hold for languages. Those disappear, at an alarming rate. If there's a
> hurry
> anywhere, it's in linguistics, biology or archaeology.
>
I never disputed that. I know it very much. But the fact that you are in a
hurry in your field doesn't mean that we have all the time of the world *here*.
We don't. I'm not studying astrophysics, but hydrodynamics. And in that field,
the practical results are awaited with little patience.

> Anyway, if they had paid attention at school, they wouldn't have had
> to
> learn German when they were in their twenties. They would have known
> already.
>
Nonsense! Only somebody who forgot how he was in school can think that! As if
paying attention was enough! So you never had a subject that you didn't manage
to master, even when working a lot on it? If you never had that, then I'm happy
for you. I didn't have that chance. I never had problems with mathematics, hard
sciences or language. But i could never master subjects like geography or
history. I remember spending days and nights studying those subjects, with for
only result just average marks. I was often obliged to neglect other subjects
just to be able to get ready for a history exam. Yet those other subjects I
never had a problem with. I was just not good at history and geography, and
though forcing myself I never managed to get around those subjects and already
forgot most of what i had difficultly learned (though I tried to keep that
knowledge. But it was so pointless that I abandoned. It costed me too much
time). In the same way, there are people that are just not good at learning
other languages. they may manage to master a second language with some
difficulty, but they will never manage to get around a third one, however hard
they try, whatever method they use, how much time they spend for it. It's not a
problem of paying attention, unlike you seem to think (I can't even understand
that somebody who should be intelligent can hold such an opinion!) but just the
fact that each one has his/her strong and weak points. For some people it's
history, for others mathematics, for others languages. You cannot expect
somebody to be good everywhere. Not everyone is at the same time Nobel prize of
physics and gold metal in biathlon! In the same way, not everybody can be an
eminence in his/her field of study and speak 4 languages, unless of course
language is his/her field. But we're talking about people for whom language is
*not* a field of study.

Moreover, I've been quite clear that I was talking about scientific language!
Most of my Dutch colleagues can speak German without much trouble, thanks to
the Dutch system that puts the emphasis on speaking the language. On the other
hand, they have much trouble reading the scientific language used in German
scientific articles, for the simple reason that even an educated German person
has difficulties with it!! I talk by experience: it took me years to learn to
read correctly a physical article in French, and I still have difficulties with
some terms of scientific English. Why should you expect something different
from Dutch people. You're not more intelligent than French people, and your
system of education just doesn't provide lessons in scientific language except
in English! And believe me, when it's in a language which is not your native
one, learning the scientific vocabulary is extremely long and painful (unless
of course if you got the scientific lessons in that language. But I don't know
any university that does it's courses in German. In English yes - and I'm
impressed by the level of command of Dutch students of scientific English -,
but not in German).

Finally, I don't judge the abilities of a physics scientist by the number of
languages he can speak. that's comparing apples and cuccumbers. You can be
intelligent without being able to speak four languages you know. And when I
write an article, I want it to reach all intelligent people who are interested
by my field of study, because their feedback may be invaluable. and I'm not
gonna prevent them from understanding my articles just because I include vital
information through untranslated quotes in a language they may never have heard
of (I for instance don't expect a Korean scientist to know more than English as
a Western language. It's probably hard enough for that person like that). So go
ahead and write your articles with untranslated quotes, but don't expect to be
known by more than a very small circle of people you know already anyway. If
you don't mind preventing people who could have much to give you to understand
you.

I just don't measure people's intelligence by the number of languages they
understand, nor by how they did in such or such subject, but by how they made
the best of their abilities, which may not be the same as mine, or as yours.
And I will certainly not insult people by uttering stupidities like "if they
had paid attention at school...", I thought this nonsense had finally
disappeared. I discover that there is still a lot of work to do and a lot of
prejudice to fight.

Christophe.

http://rainbow.conlang.free.fr

Take your life as a movie: do not let anybody else play the leading role.

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