Re: Rhys Ifans! Welsh fans, another pronunciation pop question

Henrik Theiling wrote:

 > Hi!
 >
 > Rene Uittenbogaard writes:
 >
 > > Steg Belsky wrote:
 > >...
 > > > That's how we pronounce the New York place-name "Spuyten Duyvil",
 > > > the historical figure (and neighborhood and school named after
 > > > him) Stuyvesant, and i'm sure other names that i can't think of
 > > > at the moment.
 > >
 > > In Dutch it is pronounced as [9y], so Kluivert ['kl9yv@rt]
 > >
 > > René Uittenbogaard [,9ytEn'boXart]
 >
 > Really with [X] and [r]?  Were are you from?  My limited knowledge of
 > Dutch dialects does not cover a variant with [X] (instead of [x])
 > together with [r] (instead of [R]). :-)
 >
 > Also, I'm only familiar with [8Y] and [@Y] for |ui|, but as I said, I
 > have had limited exposure to Dutch.
 >
 > The [v] in |Kluivert| (instead of [v_0]) suggests a southern, maybe
 > Belgian dialect, is that right?  However, you once wrote you were from
 > the Netherlands, so I'll exclude Vlaams for that reason.  I once knew
 > a chap from North Brabant, but he used [R] (and even [X]) for /r/, not
 > [r].  Also, he used [x], not [X] for /x/.
 >
 > A bit puzzled,
 >    Henrik

Sorry for the confusion :)

[r] is an allophone of [R] and [R\] in Dutch. I tried not to make the
phonetic spelling too difficult, so I chose [r].
My own personal pronunciation of /r/ is uvular, but I'm not sure if I
use [R] or [R\] here, or even the uvular flap, for which there seems to
be no CXS symbol.  [kl9yv@R\t] or [kl9yv@Rt].

[x] is an allophone of [X], but [x] is used in the southern part of
the Netherlands, and in Flemish. In Nijmegen, where I come from, [X]
is used mostly. I use [X].

As for the first half of |ui|: the way I pronounce it, it definitely
starts more open than [@].  Some vowel diagrams I have seen indicate
that the beginning of |ui| should be even more open than [9] (somewhere
between [&] and [6] (but rounded)).

Also, IMO pronouncing it as [8Y] brings it dangerously close to (and
could probably be mistaken for) [2] (which is also pronounced a bit as
a diphtong [2Y]).

Concerning the second half of |ui|: I believe you are right, and that
it is more closely [9Y] than [9y].

And [v] or [v_0]? I've repeated the word several times now, and I think
you're right there. I've always considered my pronunciation to be [v],
but you leave me wondering how I normally pronounce my v's, and if it
is dependent on position. Hmm :)

René (WAY past my bedtime..)

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