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Re: CHAT: Ave Maria

From:Raymond Brown <ray.brown@...>
Date:Monday, July 3, 2000, 5:17
At 6:46 pm +0200 2/7/00, BP Jonsson wrote:
>At 06:52 02.7.2000 +0100, Raymond Brown wrote: > >>While the choice of 'hail' or 'rejoice' for the opening word depends on the >>predilection of the translator, the translation of the 2nd word is >>influenced by the religious standpoint of the translator. > >Might a -- linguistically speaking -- "neutral" translation be possible? >
[Buddhist translation problems read with interest, but snipped]
> >Well, I guess that any translation of texts to which philosophical and >religious values are attached is rife with these difficulties!
Yes, indeed. One might think this is best translated by someone outside of the Christian tradition but, as your Buddhist examples show, this does not by any means guarantee neutrality. The problem is that the verb 'kharitoO' is very rare & hardly used, apparently, outside of the JudaeoChristian Scriptures. According to Liddell & Scott, it occurs once in the Septuagint, in Ecclesiasticus (Siracides) 18, verse 17. Unfortunately, I don't have the Septuagint version. In the Vulgate version there is nothing at chap.18, verse 17 that could possibly correspond to the verb. But there are difference in numbering chapters & verses in the Septuagint & Vulgate versions, so I'm afraid I can't pin this down but I guess it won't have the Pauline meaning, but prob. means 'having favor shown to one' (it's passive here acc. to L & S). It occurs in the active in Paul's letter to the Church at Ephesos, ch.1, v.6, thus: eis epainon doxEs tEs kharitos autou to [the] praise of-the-glory of-the grace of-him [the Father] hEs ekhaitOsen hEmas en tOi EgapEmenOi, of-which he-engraced us in the beloved [son] i.e. "to the praise of the glory of his grace, from which he has filled us with grace in his beloved son". Here kharit- is clearly being used in the meaning developed in the Pauline writings, i.e. 'grace' in the theological sense - 'free & underserved favor, gift, help [that God gives us to respond to his call to be partakers of the diven nature & of eternal life]'. The missing definite articles at the beginning is interesting - this is obviously a Semeticism as (just as in Welsh & Gaelic) if the posessive (which follows the possessed) is definite, we do not put the definite article before the first noun. Luke uses the perfect passive participle in giving Gabriel's salutation to Mary. As you know the old Greek perfect was not like the so-called perfect tenses of modern western European languages, which essentially has a past meaning; it represent a *present state* resulting from some past action or event. So the question here is whether Luke is using this rare verb just with a general meaning. i.e. 'you, who have had favor shown you & now enjoy that favor' or whether he is using it with the meaning developed in the Pauline writings, i.e. 'you, who have been engraced [by God & are now filled with that grace]'. As the Pauline writings pre-date the Gospels, I find it unlikely that Luke was not using it the second way. And the weight of Orthodox & Catholic tradition supports this. But then, I guess, I'm slightly biased ;) Ray. ========================================= A mind which thinks at its own expense will always interfere with language. [J.G. Hamann 1760] =========================================