Re: CHAT: Ave Maria
| From: | Raymond Brown <ray.brown@...> |
|---|
| Date: | Tuesday, June 27, 2000, 6:05 |
|---|
At 9:50 pm +0100 24/6/00, Dan Jones wrote:
>One of Carasta's religions is Christianity of an early Catholic kind. I was
>trying to think of a way to present a short sample from each of the Carastan
>languages, and I came up with this, a translation of Ave Maria.
>
>Original Latin:
>Ave Maria, gratia plene, dominus tecum, benedicta tu in mulieribus,
^
plena (voc. sing.)
>et benedictus frucus ventris tui Iesus.
^
et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Jesus.
>Sancta Maria, pro nobis peccatoribus
'Mater Dei' (Mother of God) and 'ora' (pray [imperative]) habe been
omitted. The line should read:
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus
>nunc et in hora mortis nostrae, amen.
[snip]
But if one of Carasta's religions is Christianity of an early Catholic
kind, I fear we have an anachronism here. The prayer as given above was
not known in early Catholicism; it did not become standardized until the
Council of Trent in the 16th century.
------------------------------------------------------------------
At 3:56 pm -0500 26/6/00, Danny Wier wrote:
[...]
>
>The last line should be: Santa Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis
>peccatoribus...
>
>It's a prayer of Latin/Western origin; Orthodoxy has no equivalent, at least
>in the way of a short and repeatable Marian prayer.
Yep - but the first two lines are (apart from the addition of the names
'Maria' and 'Jesus') from Luke chap. 1, verse 28 & the first part of verse
42. The earliest version was simply: "Ave, gratia plena, Dominus tecum.
Benedicta tu in mulieribus." ("Khaire, kekharito:mene:, ho Kyrios meta
sou. euloge:mene: sy en gynaiksin" ).
They were used in ancient liturgies in both East & West. They appear in the
liturgy of St James the Less in the Eastern Church and were used in the
Mass for the 1st Sunday of Advent in the West.
It was in the 11th cent. the words started to be used as a form of popular
devotion (a bit like a mantra). By the end of the 12th century, the rest
of Luke 1:42 had been added as well as the name, 'Maria'. 'Jesus',
apparently, wasn't added till the 13th cent. The prayer then was:
"Ave Maria, gratia plena; Dominus tecum. Benedicta tu in mulieribus et
benedictus fructus ventris tui, Jesus."
During the 15th century it became customary to add petitions to Our Lady to
the end of the prayer. At first these varied quite a bit; but in the
Catechism of the Council of Trent (16th cent.) the added petition was given
as:
"Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus nunc et in hora mortis
nostrae."
..and that has been the standardized form of the prayer ever since.
Ray.
(But the Akathistos to
>the Virgin is a great hymn/prayer -- I think it has twelve parts, and is
>begun and ended with various _kontakia_ and doxologies. It is an integral
>part of St. Basil's liturgy, which is standard among Copts.)
>
>Now on to what Tech might have. Unfortunately, I have no idea what most of
>the words or hardly any of the grammar and syntax is going to be like. A
>Tech-nical analysis would be something like...
>
>peace thou-DAT Mary-VOC, complete favor-LOC, the Lord-NOM with thou-INS!
>blessed-FEM-ABS thou-NOM among woman-GrPL-LOC, and blessed-MASC-ABS the
>fruit-NOM womb-GEN-thy, Jesus-NOM. Mary-VOC the holy-VOC, mother-VOC
>God-DAT, pray-IMP-2SG+1plInc=LOC sinner-GrtPL-LOC, now-ADV the hour-and-LOC
>death-GEN-our(GrPlInc). Amen.
>
>Most likely, the first two words would be: _sla:Mx ?@ Mary@M_ (M =
>labiodental nasal). Vocative is usually marked only by lenition of the
>initial consonant, or a t- prefix with initial fricatives/laryngeals, and no
>suffix. The particle ?@ is optional, but recommended for formal use such as
>this. The only other words I can think of are _mary@M ?@ X'Do:sA: ?amA:
>t-@l~A:h_ (X' = uvular ejective fricative, l~ = velar(ized) lateral; last
>two words are not lenited because they are written "amma t-Allah", with
>doubled/fortis consonants), for "Holy Mary, Mother of God".
>
>As one can see, consonant phonology can get quite ugly.
>
>Daniel A. Wier ¶¨œ
>Lufkin, Texas USA
>
http://communities.msn.com/DannysDoubleWideontheWeb
>________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
http://www.hotmail.com