Re: CHAT: Ave Maria

From: "Raymond Brown"

> GREEK NT(E = eta; O = omega):          LATIN VULGATE
> khaire, kekharitOmeE,                  Ave, gratia plena,
> ho Kyrios meta sou.                    Dominus tecum.
> eulogEmenE sy en gynaixin,             Benedicta tu in mulieribus,
> kai eulogEmenos ho karpos              et benedictus fructus
>   tEs koilias sou.                       ventris tui.
> This is one of those little problems faced by translators, like the
> translation of the second word, kekharitOmenE; but whereas the difference
> with the first word has little or no theological import, that of the
second
> word certainly does.
Did a little checking of some of the Bibles I have on hand. My English one
(Revised Standard Edition) has: "Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with
you!", and leaves it there, picking up the familiar interpretation at 1:42.

My German one offers: "Gegrüßet seist du, Holdselige! Der Herr ist mit dir,
du Gebenedeiete unter den Weibern." I don't know all of the connotative
nuances of "holdselig", but it seems to tap into the notion of being
"favored" ("selig" on its own means "blessed" or "blissful").

My Swedish one seems to parallel the Vulgate the closest (and perhaps the
Greek; I can't comment), giving (in Fraktur and antiquated spellings):
"Hell, full med nåd; Herren är med dig; wälsignad du ibland qwinnor." "Full
of grace" and lack of copula in the "Blessed art thou among women" part.

A question, Ray: You mentioned in a different thread on the Lord's prayer
that the Vulgate slips in a "quis est" into "Pater noster in caelo" because
Latin does not allow for prepositions to be used adverbially. Here, though,
we have "Dominus tecum" (where all three of my Germanic examples above add a
copula), and "[benedicta] tu in mulieribus". What's happening here? Is there
a sort of ellipsis occurring here that is absent or different in the Lord's
Prayer? What's the diff?

Kou Curiosus