Re: French and German (jara: An introduction)

Quoting Henrik Theiling <theiling@...>:

> Hi!
>
> Andreas Johansson <andjo@...> writes:
> > Quoting Henrik Theiling <theiling@...>:
> > > ['OIRo:\] is the standard, but ['OYRo:\] may exists, too, I don't
> > > know.
> >
> > You say? Duden has [Oy] for the relevant diphthong; I've seen [OY] and
> [O2] in
> > other dictionaries and textbooks, but never, AFAICR, [OI].
>
> True, true. :-)
>
> The problem with my dialect is that I sometimes don't know what is a
> dialectal feature (because it seems to be *almost* High German, not
> even concidered a dialect).  Especially for vowels, I have noticed
> that my pronunciation is quite away from the standard.  Obviously, I
> should be more careful when reasoning about Standard German from
> examinig my own pronunciation.
I've walked into a couple of minefields over the same issue with regard to
standard Swedish ... I know how you feel!

> However, my point about the half-long (or long, probably depending on
> dialect again) [o] instead of short [O].
I don't doubt you, but I've never noticed this. Probably hearing Swedish
phonology were I should be hearing German!

> > > And French uses [R\] or maybe also [R] instead of [r] (you used
> [],
> > > not //, so let me be picky...:-) ).
> >
> > According to the way I learnt the IPA, [R\] and [R] may perfectly
> legitimately
> > be represented as [r] in loose transcription. Using //s would be
> quite
> > pointless when comparing between different languages.
>
> Oh, it's not pointless when you want to stress how different the
> pronunciation is between different languages in Europe. :-)
Yes it is; outsiders won't know that /x/ varies between [C] and [x] in German,
but that /S/ is consistently [x] in (my version of) Swedish.

> Sorry, I did not want to be offensive, just picky.  My understanding
> was that as a phoneme, you may use /r/ for any {r}, but with phones,
> you should be precise.
>
> Hey, I wrote :-) after it!
I was just trying to avoid any discussions on phonetic details ... but the
concept of "loose transcription" I learnt appears not to be universal.

                                                     Andreas

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