Re: OT: Opinions wanted: person of vocatives

PB = Petere Bleackley
MR = Mark Reed

PB> Pater Noster
PB> qui es in caelis
PB> sanctificatur nomen tuum
PB> adveniat regnum tuum
PB> sicut in caelis et in terra

MR> Hm.  Skips right over "thy will be done," eh?

PB> Bother! Forgot "fiat voluntas tua"

Ah, so you were the one doing the skipping, then. :)

PB> panem nostrum cotidianum

MR> cotidianum?  not quotidianum?

PB> As I say, this is probably mediaeval Latin.

Or at the very least vulgar rather than Classical, yes.  I just
didn't know that "quotidian" had become "cotidian" in later Latin.
Google finds more "panum nostrum quotidian" than "panum nostrum cotidian",
by about a 3;1 margin, but both turn up less than 1,000 hits, so that's
not very reliable.

MR> What I'm curious about is why the Vulgate leaves off the trailing bit
PB> with "for Thine is the kingdom," etc.  It's in the original Greek.

PB> I think it's in the "original" Greek in one Gospel but not in another
PB> (Presumably the original was in Aramaic).

Erm.  You have a point, there. :)

In the Greek version at blueletterbible.com, the Greek version of Matthew has
it, but that of Luke doesn't.

PB> Liturgically, it's separated out as a response to another prayer, said
PB> by the priest immediately afterwards.

Interesting.

PB> I have no idea what the Latin is for this prayer, as I have never
PB> heard a Tridentine Mass in full (it is now mainly celebrated by
PB> those who disapprove of any kind of modernisation of the Church,
PB> even with the authority of a Council), or for that matter, heard a
PB> New Rite Mass in Latin (although I have heard it in Japanese, just
PB> about recognising the words "Kami" and "watashitachi no chichi").

Thanks for the info!  Let me make sure I understand the terms, though
(you may have noticed that I'm not a Catholic :)): the current Mass is
the "New Rite", which can be given in the vernacular or in Latin, while
the older, traditional Mass is the "Tridentine" and is Latin only?

-Mark

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