Re: CHAT: Brainstorming! Relative clauses

Christophe Grandsire <grandsir@...> wrote:
> taliesin the storyteller wrote:
> >
> > I'm currently struggling with understanding the rel. cl. of my lang
> > correctly, and thought I'd look at how it works in other langs.
> > Unfortunately, it seems that relative clauses is part of the grammar
> > that is 'not yet online' :) Does it change too often?
> >
>=20
>         Not in my case :) . I explain how to make relative clauses in a=
ll my
> grammars that are online.
Same here, unless the grammar I have is still under heavy
development. Drasel=E9q subordinate clauses are described
(though not in great detail) in the Subordinate section
of the Miscellanea of the Encyclopaedia:

 <http://draseleq.conlang.org/pablo-david/dg_misc.html#Subordinate>

Drasel=E9q uses the interrogative pronouns as relative pronouns for
non-core arguments in subordinates. For example:

        =E4sm=FCr     qaik  i porr  nail=FCt
        place.LOC where * 3sMAS see.1sPST
        'in the place where I saw him'

        m=E8p qamp eiaq
        day when arrive.3sPST
        'the day when s/he arrived'

For core arguments, a relativizing inflection is added to the normal
pronoun, which is left in place. Taliesin's examples:

> rel. subject:
> "The dog that saw the cat was large."
        Rronaq      rrogon i arrgel naiaq     b=FCd.
        large.3sPST dog    * cat    see.3sPST 3sNEU.REL

        (Drasel=E9q is VSO, but perception verbs are OVS with
        the Object as a kind of oblique, preceded by _i_).

> rel. object:
> "The dog saw the cat that killed the mouse."
        I arrgel thrumaq    b=FCd       fomben    naiaq     rrogon.
        * cat    kill.3sPST 3sNEU.REL mouse.ACC see.3sPST dog

> nested:
> "The dog that saw the cat that killed the mouse that was large drank
> from the river that John put the poison in."
Oh, God. Here:

        =D3lus=FCr    n=FCs  b=FCd       en=E1rq     Haler kolmun
        river.LOC into 3sNEU.REL put.3sPST Haler poison.ACC

        faik qololaq     rrogon
        here drink.3sPST dog

        i arrgel thrumaq    b=FCd       fomben
        * cat    kill.3sPST 3sNEU.REL mouse.ACC

        rronaq      b=FCd       naiaq     b=FCd.
        large.3sPST 3sNEU.REL see.3sPST 3sNEU.REL


Obviously *no one* would intend this to be understood. The usual
way is to dislocate. Note the pronoun _faik_ 'here' used as
resumptive. All deictics double as resumptives; proximals are
anaphoric (previous phrase) and distals are cataphoric (next
phrase). Even if they are not needed, they are extensively
used, especially for oblique subordinates.


> rel. indirect object:
> "The dog that John gave the ball to."
Well, this is easy since ditransitive verbs in Drasel=E9q mark
direct object as oblique with _i_, and reserve the accusative
for indirect objects:

        Rrogon i matal qgedaq     Haler b=FCnd.
        dog    * ball  give.3sPST Haler 3sNEU.REL.ACC

> rel. oblique:
> "The mouse that the cat chewed on."
> "The cat that the dog was bigger than."
See above. You just have to use the pronoun you would use,
and inflect it for relativization (.REL).

> rel. posessor:
> "The dog saw the cat whose teeth were huge."
        I arrgel qat=E0rroneq      b=FCdes         anqath naiaq     rrogon.
        * cat    SUP.large.3pPST 3sNEU.REL.GEN teeth  see.3sPST dog

The relativized pronouns are treated as common nouns, and get
the usual GEN suffix <-es>. But in colloquial speech, people
just juxtapose: 'The cat, its teeth were huge, the dog saw.'


--Pablo Flores
  http://draseleq.conlang.org/pablo-david/