Re: Chinese Dialect Question

On Fri, Oct 03, 2003 at 09:13:04PM -0400, Tristan McLeay wrote:
> Funnily enough, there's some people here (Melbourne, Oz) that use [f] as
> the normal version of /T/. All of them are adults. (e.g. my former boss, a
> 'maffs' teacher I had once, a chemistry teacher I had once.)
Okay, apparently this is a widespread substitution.  I guess I've just
been conditioned to think of it as an uneducated/speech error.

> > But I don't know that you can claim  [T] is particularly difficult, since
> > many children say [T] when trying to say [s].  It just depends on the
> > child.
>
> I don't think I've ever heard that one. I can remember being taught how to
> say [T], though, getting into the van which we bought when I was four.
You've never heard someone with a lisp?  That's what "lisp" means,
at least usually - saying [T] for [s].  I knew many children growing
up who were in speech therapy because they had such a lisp.  It's also
stereotypical of effeminate homosexuals; author David Sedaris was such
a child and remarked in his book _Me_Talk_Pretty_One_Day_ that his speech
therapy class might as well have been called "Future Homosexuals of
America", indicating that the stereotype proved accurate at least in
those cases. :)

> > Are there any dialects in which /l/ and /j/ have merged into [j]?  That's
> > another common children's error.  ("Turn out the yight, Mommy!")
>
> I've never heard that one.
Well, I have firsthand experience of that one - I remember my parents
painstakingly explaining how to say a proper [l].  I've since encountered
enough accounts of it that I assume it's not all that rare, but then again,
that could just be selective attention on my part.

> I *have* heard chiwdren using [w] for /l/, but never [j].
I have heard that as well, but it's a more thorough substitution;
I think the [l]->[j] only happens initially.  In fact, I suppose
it's possible for children who make that error to simultaneously say [w]
for final (or "dark") [l].  I don't know, though; I have no memory of
how I pronounced, e.g., "milk" back then.  I just remember being coached
with phrases like "Yittle yemon yion".

-Mark

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